Greedygrabbygrubbers

[ceebeegee]

Yesterday in Slate, their advice columnist responded, again, to the question of whether a bridal couple should ask for money.

Oh my God. I can't begin to say how completely tacky I think it is to ask for anything, much less money. I just shudder. I know many people give money which bothers me enough because it puts a financial value on what you're giving, in addition to making people who can't afford to give much feel like shit, because of course the couple are going to notice right away who gave more, and less. But to ask? To expect it? I don't have a problem with gift registries as long as they're discreet--not included with the wedding invitations. But money? Too, too tacky. Why don't I just skip the wedding entirely and send a check? That's what you really want, isn't it? I remember one snotty bride writing in to Carolyn Hax saying "if you're invited you have to send a gift, even if you don't go." You have to send a gift? Fuck off, greedy person. Get your hands out of other people's wallets.

This was great:

Good thing times have changed. Most ethnic traditions include monetary gifts at a wedding. In fact, any other type of gift is out of the norm. "Physical" gifts are usually presented by the family IN ADDITION to a monetary gift. I come from an upper middle-class, well-educated family, and we have never gone to a wedding that has not been this way.

Um, not my ethnic tradition. People in the South would faint if people asked for money. And justifying something by claiming to be from an "upper middle-class, well-educated family" is pretty transparent--your argument should speak for itself. My family would disown me if I asked for money at my wedding. And if we're going to get snotty, my family is descended from a Signer. "Times have changed..."--the standard for every attempt to hijack etiquette to suit your own urges.

This was the best:

So they think it's "tacky" to ask for money? Well, we think it's worse to make people spend precious time getting gifts we don't need or want.

You're right! You're so right! So rather than impose, how about telling your guests no gifts are needed at all? Oh but wait, that would cut into your "take." And I love the reasoning of "we're older, we have everything we need already." Bingo. So, you don't NEED anything. Why are you asking for something then? Or rather, expecting anything? What is it about weddings that turn some people into grabbing, entitlement-minded monsters? Ugh. Just UGH.

Comments

[mysticblaze.livejournal.com]

I always thought that if you are invited to a wedding, your presence was the gift. Why invite people with whom you really do not want to share your special moment just to get something out of them? I would find it extremely uncomfortable. Also, any further gift should be left up to your discretion. If you are poor and cannot afford a gift, you should not be required or expected to provide one regardless of whether you attend the event.

I believe the tradition of gifts has something to do with the idea that women were property, and were given away by their fathers with enough possessions so that they would not be a financial burden to their new husbands. Thus, in order for the father to pass the financial responsibility that his daughter incurred to another man, the dowry had to be large enough to compensate for the potential husband's loss of freedom. Other family members would provide gifts to help the dowry grow.

As far as I am aware, nowadays most people do not adhere to the dowry concept in theory, but apparently they do in practice when they expect physical and monetary gifts. It is not an excuse to say, "this will help the newly married couple to start their life together without worries". Worries are a part of married life, and the sooner a couple learns to deal with them, the stronger and longer lasting the marriage will be.

Needless to say, I despise the money-grabbing, entitlement-minded mentality as well.

[jayspec.livejournal.com]

Well, as someone currently planning a wedding, I kind of see both sides.

No one invited to my wedding is obligated to send a gift of any kind. If they are invited, that means that we love them (or, at the very least, they are relatives we are fond of) and it was important that they be there to share the day with us, gifts or otherwise. We're going to register at a few places, certainly, to make life easier for those who want to send gifts, but we're certainly not going to mention it unless people ask.

That being said, we need money. We need to move in to a new apartment. We need to buy some new furniture. There will be a thousand little things we need, and we can't possibly anticipate it all on the registry. We'd like to go on a honeymoon, too. We're not wealthy, certainly, and I hope you don't think we're greedy, but if people invited to our wedding desire to send us money, we won't be turning them away. :)

[ceebeegee.livejournal.com]

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting or needing money, or hoping for it, especially because it's certainly a custom for some people to give it. Where I draw the line is asking for it, expecting it, demanding it. It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. It turns the whole thing into a financial transaction, especially that formula of "pay as much as they're spending on your plate at the reception" (sorry, Mike!). First of all, how are you supposed to calculate that? Especially if you don't even know until you get to the reception, at which point most people have already bought the gift. And what if you got a great deal on the wedding gift--are you supposed to fork over the remainder for the couple as well? And most importantly, what about the poor friends you may have? One year I was invited to 7 weddings, of which I was in 4 (either bridesmaid, MOH or singer). I got so panicky I had to decline a couple--I couldn't afford much of anything that year. If someone had told me I was obliged to give a gift even if I didn't go to ceremony, I would've hung up on them. Luckily my friends are nicer than that. I had to give some of them presents almost a year later--I held a mass "reverse wedding shower," wherein I presented four brides with presents which they all found amusing. But then there was the bridal shower (also that year) wherein I had to give a plant because I couldn't afford ANYTHING more. Again, my friend was really nice but I did get some looks from the older women there.

It just really bothers me seeing what should be a joyous occasion turned into this mass grab, this commercial venture. Stop calculating what people are spending and just be happy they're there. It should not be about the presents.

[minstrel70.livejournal.com]

My "formula" was intended to be approximate. Most weddings run between $50-100 / plate. I try to always give a gift in that range or higher. More, if I bring a date.

I suppose it's a silly formula I read somewhere, that stuck with me. But it does provide a useful guideline, I think.

[ceebeegee.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I've heard it too. I first heard it when this girl with whom I was doing a show was complaining about the quality of gifts at her wedding. She cited that formula and my jaw dropped. Just...wow. It's not a bad guideline but again, I draw the line as a requirement, a demand. It's just so crass.

[minstrel70.livejournal.com]

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that point. It's as rude as comparing the value of Christmas gifts exchanged. And it doesn't take into account what someone can afford.

Then again, there's where it can really get ugly: a friend of mine complained (behind my back) that the $100 check I sent for her wedding, which I did not even attend, wasn't sufficient given my income. Seriously. I haven't so much talked to her since I heard that...

[ceebeegee.livejournal.com]

Oh. Oh, wow. No words.

[wonderpanther.livejournal.com]

The "formula" really depends on where the wedding is given. I would say that the "standard" monetary gift from a decently close friend in the NYC Metro Area is presently $200-$250. In upstate NY, it is $100-$150.

[minstrel70.livejournal.com]

Oh, hell.. So I'm a cheap bastard stepchild of the '80s and Midwest then? Can one retroactively gift someone? I've never given more than, say, $150 (per person, of course) in cash or kind. And suddenly I feel guilty.

I dare say my obnoxious (ex-) friend, who found $100 a little slim, would take your standard, adjust for income, and find me in contempt for a gift of less than $500.

Yet I've never been accused of being cheap, save for the one I mentioned earlier.

[minstrel70.livejournal.com]

Actually, skip my last comment. $200-250, as an expectation, is obscene. And I don't care if the wedding is in the NYC metro, or in the hinterlands of Kentucky. Suddenly I'm completely with Clara on this one. Maybe it's just because I'm feeling oppressive guilt at being a cheap SOB lately.

[ceebeegee.livejournal.com]

You are not a cheap SOB. After The Year of Seven Weddings, where I felt horrible at bringing a plant to a bridal shower, for a bride in whose wedding I was singing (and you should've seen the stuff she got at that shower--THREE fully stocked picnic baskets--it's all a competition), I swore if I ever get married, I will personally seek out my friends and tell them "Only get me a gift if it really means something to us, or if you made it or something. If you're bringing a gift because you feel you have to, don't bother--I'd rather see your ass. Make me perfume or cross-stitch me something. I don't need a flippin' blender." I will fully cop to liking my "things" and in that sense, being materialistic--but I indulge my own materialism. I am a terrible gift-giver because to me, what's really important is spending quality time with someone.

Hay-seuss. $250. It's all a big racket. No wonder people get married for all the wrong reasons, with that kind of pressure. They want some return on their investment!

[mysticblaze.livejournal.com]

It is easy to become a great gift-giver as long as you listen to what your prospective donee has to say (particularly if you are spending a lot of time with him or her)... most often, the donee will tell you what he or she wants without actually realizing it. The donee does not have to know how much you spent (if anything), or where you got it from, as long as it is something that he or she will enjoy. It is the thought that counts, and seeing that you were paying attention to what was said is usually enough. You will know when the donee pauses as he or she looks at the gift, and then at you, in disbelief and awe.

BTW- after having read parts of your journal, I would assume that a good gift for you would be a toy for Tatiana or a bottle of apple schnappes...

The same principle applies to the soon to be married couple, but it takes extra work, since you have to listen to both persons and extrapolate something that they both want. But it can be done, and inexpensively at that. It does require taking the time and shopping around for the best deal.

[wonderpanther.livejournal.com]

I want to amend in saying that the numbers I gave are generally a "per couple" amount.

[wonderpanther.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. Here are some of the absolute best gifts Seth and I got:

1) A serving bowl from a local potter and 2 shirts from the Coffee Messiah in Seattle...we can't wear them in publich as they might offend but they rock.
2) A Rainy Day Fun kit that featured a wine rack, a bottle of wine, a motown CD and a board game.
3) 6 bottles of wine all hand decorated by my friends with paint and stickers for specific occasions including "A Night by the Fire" and "A Starry Night" and two hand decorated wione glasses.

[minstrel70.livejournal.com]

I think in some cases it comes down to who is paying for the wedding. Both weddings I went to this year were financed by the bride & groom themselves, rather than in the traditional way.

While cash or physical gifts should never be expected, I think it's polite and proper to give a gift that at least covers what the bride and groom have spent on your dinner and drinks.

That said, the latter of the two weddings was very expensive for the guests. Resort in Montauk, 2-night minimum at $140/night, rental car, mileage, etc. I certainly didn't go overboard on the gifts after all that, but the wedding ended up setting me back around $500 all the same...

[wonderpanther.livejournal.com]

Seth and I attended his cousin's wedding last year, which was incredibly expensive:
1) Airfare to Florida
2) Hotel
3) Tuxedo rental (Seth was a groomsman)
4) Gift

And guess what?
They announced their intention to divorec 7.5 months into the marriage.

[minstrel70.livejournal.com]

OK, you've trumped me there. No airfare involved.

I was a groomsman in the first wedding this year, and while I fully expected that one to be pricey, I was pleasantly surprised to find the groom had paid for the tuxes. Saved $125 right there.

He then proceeded to return from Jamaica bearing 4 fine Cuban cigars for me, gratis.

In hindsight, I should've given a better gift...

[mysticblaze.livejournal.com]

I can trump yours, Rachel. My attendance last year to a wedding in Bucharest, Romania:

1. Airfare to London, UK to spend time with the groom before the blessed event (x2, went with the ex)
2. Hotel in London, see above
3. Airfare to Bucharest, Romania for the actual event
4. Hotel in Bucharest- not many choices, since there are only two or three and the wedding took place at the most expensive one
5. Gift

The wedding ordeal set us back over $2,500.00 (not to mention incidentals, such as luggage being lost and having to purchase necessities, meals, etc.)

Our presence should have been more than enough. And why am I annoyed about this? The bride and groom had already had their civil ceremony a year earlier (we went to the religious one), and they have been planning from the beginning on obtaining a divorce (did not find out about this until after the trip). They only got married so she could stay in the UK indefinitely.

[wonderpanther.livejournal.com]

Damn! You should send them a bill!

[mysticblaze.livejournal.com]

I have considered it, but since this was the trip where I got the two roundtrip tickets from Virgin that I need to use by next February, that made up for a good portion of the expense.

Besides, I am not sure if the bride and groom would speak to me now. The groom was a close friend of my ex's.

[ceebeegee.livejournal.com]

Holy crap, Holly. Was it at least fun seeing Bucharest? I've always wanted to go there.

Some people have no shame.

[mysticblaze.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed what I saw of Bucharest, which unfortunately was not much. Since I was traveling with the ex, my range of activities was curtailed: the first night of our stay, we went to look for an art gallery where a small reception for all out of town guests (read everyone on the groom's side) was being held. As we were walking away from the hotel, one man accosted my ex to try to convince him to buy me an almost dead flower from his basket. It took that man 20 minutes to give up. Then, a little further down the street, a woman walked up to him, started touching his arm with one hand while making round motions around her stomach with the other, saying "hungry, hungry". That lasted for 15 minutes. Needless to say, we did not get very far from the hotel or to the reception, although we did make it to the dinner being held in the hotel.

I was not accosted at all, mostly because people think I am from Spain when I travel throughout Europe. My ex, on the other hand, looked American and was a constant target the 2 1/2 days we were there.

I should have ditched him, and done more exploring on my own.

[wonderpanther.livejournal.com]

As one who is married and read all the crazy wedding books a while back, I have this to add...

1) Money is a fine wedding gift and it is traditional to give money at a Jewish occassion. My understanding is that etiquette differs across religion and culture. You may not wish to put a value on attendance at a wedding but there is a known standard. Of course, no one "expects" it and no one should feel bad if he or she cannot afford the standard. Gifts are NOT expected. Presence is a gift. How do I know there is a standard? All the guests from the same geographic regions gave us the same monetary gift.

2) Gifts are not expected but they are given and are reciprocated. The most generous gifts came from the friends of our parents and were most likely given because my parents and Seth's parents have been generous with their children in the past. Also, every time my parents or Seth's parents attend the wedding of a child of their friends who attended ours, the parents ask me to look up what was given to us by their friends so that they can reciprocate appropriately. Originally, I had tracked only that monetary gifts were given so that I could write a good thank you notes. Both sets of parents asked that I record the amounts as well.

3) Although money is fine by my religion's standard, it is extremely tacky to ask for money or any type of gift. In fact, it is tacky to even tell people that you have a registry, unless they ask. Usually, the task of publicizing the registry is handled by friends and family, unofficially. Also, if the bridal couple is asked directly, they can divulge. Never should anything from the bridal couple make any indication that there is a gift expected or suggested. Even if no gifts are requested, someone else can carry the news, or you can add the line "Your presence is our gift" at the bottom. You are never supposed to let on that gifts are expected.

4) There are lots of gift opportunities that lead up to a wedding and friends can feel burdened and obligated. It is best to make sure that you want to celebrate with them, not burden them. At my shower, my brother (my master of honor) asked that no gifts be brought except a dish to share...the event was a potluck. At the shower thrown by the women at my parents' temple, the gift to me was a book of recipes, memories and advice that all the women put together for me. It was truly wonderful.

Well, that was more than I had intended to write on that subject.