ceebeegee | Deal breakers

Interesting article about "deal breakers."

I have a problem with the slant of this article--that women are the only gender who have deal breakers. In fact that was a running joke on Seinfeld about how inexlicably picky he and George were. And I think the concept of deal breakers is ill-defined. Any woman would be pissed at some of the behavior portrayed. Like "There's the dumb remark, as in 'I guess I should have told you I was a drug dealer.' Or: 'Do you know you have cellulite on your legs?' " I mean, duh!

But then this pissed me off, on behalf of the guys:

Who pays for a date can also be a big deal. Two generations ago, the man was expected to. A generation later, women paid their own way. Today, many young ladies silently embrace the notion that the guy should pay if he can afford it -- but guys don't seem to have caught on.

Fuck that. I cannot stand women who expect that. I saw a Today show segment about that a few years ago and my head exploded--the would-be princesses dissing any man who didn't pay. Fuck. That. Men are not banks, and women are not princesses. We are all adults. And not to mention, money comes with strings attached sometimes.

OTOH, this also pissed me off:

Chanel Hill, a GW junior, was pursued in high school by a guy whom she finally agreed to go out with once she got to college. He asked her to dinner, assuring her "You won't have to pay for a thing." They took the Metro to Union Station, dined at Johnny Rocket's, laughed over old times. Then the bill came. "It lay on the table for 10, 15, then 20 minutes," Hill recalls. "I went to the bathroom and when I came back, it was still there." Finally, the young man asked, "Chanel, what are you going to contribute?"

Dude. If you offer to pay, you should pay. A guy once asked me out, named the restaurant (and it wasn't cheap) and then asked for a contribution at the end--and I was pretty poor at the time. He did pay most of it but I thought that was very poor form. If I'd known he wanted a contribution, I would've suggested a less expensive restaurant.

But then, again OTOH, this infuriated me:

Some of her girlfriends expect to be spoiled, she says. Kalinger, though, doesn't like expensive gifts. When a boy she had been seeing for two weeks gave her a diamond heart necklace from Tiffany & Co., she cut loose. But she kept the necklace.

Sooooooooooo tacky. Unbelievably poor form. You kept a Tiffany diamond heart necklace??? And dumped the guy? I'm just shaking my head at that. I can't believe her mother let her do that.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

mollyx.livejournal.com

However, some of that stuff is just wrong.

And we both know guys can also have very dumb deal breakers. But that girl who broke up with the boy and took the jewelry with her. If my mother ever heard of me pulling something like that, I couldn't live to tell the tale. That's just... no home training, yo. If I ever did that, I can't even fathom it.

The last inappropriate gift I received from someone I threw away. It was a definite "moving too fast" gesture and after I found out what a pig he was, I wanted to throw it right back in his face. My friends talked me out of it. wish they hadn't.

From:

jayspec.livejournal.com

That reminds me. I need to get you an unexpected and utterly lavish gift, just for the hell of it.

From:

mollyx.livejournal.com

I'm calling your bluff, buster. Let's see this gift.

From:

foulpost.livejournal.com

-Stein recalls returning from a date in a taxi with a student from Atlanta. As they neared her dorm, she offered to pay the fare. He said, "Sure." She was offended.

"You're supposed to offer, and he's supposed to insist that he pay," she says.-

Huh? She's SUPPOSED to offer, he's SUPPOSED to insist? And is he also supposed to be a mind reader? What planet is this girl living on?

I'm not really offended by this article even though it pre-supposes that most men are just garden variety idiots who simply "don't get it", what a load of horseshit. God knows I've known enough females who were also operating on a lean mixture. Right now I'm thinking of the girl in the mens room who screamed at me to get out when I walked in a few weeks ago. Ever hear of a door lock sweetheart?

As a garden variety butt sniffing grunting primate male even I understand there are certain social conventions to which I must adhere in the dating ritual. I hold open doors, I pull out chairs, I compliment her. But a first date does NOT include dinner, for a reason. It's expensive and yes I will pay, the first time. But to get to the first time she needs to earn that, it isn't automatic. And if she offers to pay I have to say that scores big points. But usually I'll start with drinks or coffee or something simple and non-pretentious and go from there.

Here's the thing that bothers me though, why do most women assume they are they prize? I guess I'm speaking from my online dating experience here but it strikes me that the prevailing attitude is all about "you're not good enough for me." The snobbery is amazing. Does it not occur to any of them that it might, in some cases, be the other way around? For every 100 guys who lie, who beat women, who cheat on women, who are spineless losers, who truly are morons, there is a guy like me. Maybe I really don't get it.

From:

minstrel70.livejournal.com

For every 100 guys who lie, who beat women, who cheat on women, who are spineless losers, who truly are morons, there is a guy like me.

Either you have your ratio backwards, or you have a very low opinion of your fellow man. Not to mention that as stated, the numbers would tend to support the "you're not good enough" assumption.

From:

foulpost.livejournal.com

My numbers aren't backward nor did I say I have a low opinion of my fellow man. My point is that those are the guys who usually win.

From:

minstrel70.livejournal.com

But what you're saying, put another way, is that for every guy like you there are 100 who lie, beat women, cheat, are losers, or are morons. Or, if you prefer, only 1% of men are decent human beings.

You are correct, however, that the other 99% tend to win.

From:

foulpost.livejournal.com

No, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying for every 100 WHO etc. etc...not that I'm the 1% of all men as a whole and that all men beat up their girlfriends.

In any case, I'll shut up now. I see some schoolkids passing by and I need to steal their lunch money for crack.

From:

ceebeegee.livejournal.com

First off, I don't think most women assume they are the prize, in the sense that you're not good enough. (I think everyone entering into dating has to place a healthy value on themselves, and not date someone just to pass the time.) You could just as easily say most men think they're the prize. I wouldn't confuse gamesmanship ( a healthy exchange of attraction/repulsion) with entitlement (snobbery).

Second, if you're talking from online dating experience, your perspective will be very skewed. There are many more men than women who post online personals, and any reasonably attractive woman will gets hundreds of responses.

From:

foulpost.livejournal.com

I can see your point, and true online dating is populated by mostly males. I don't really do it anymore, at least not actively. On some sites though you may be surprised at the close ratio. I have encountered a lot of women who clearly want a guy who makes a lot of money and works for some corporate anagram. I think the point I really wanted to make was the last thing I wrote. I really do thing women graviate toward guys who treat them like shit. Sometimes I joke that I wish I could just be a complete prick because then perhaps things would be simpler.

From:

mollyx.livejournal.com

It would be simpler.
But you wouldn't be you. You wouldn't be happy, and you would be known as a prick. Some women are under the impression that they can change these prick men. For the rest, I can't explain. I never understood the attraction of lousy men. Well, men who started out lousy, anyway. Two of mine just ended up that way.

From:

mysticblaze.livejournal.com

The attraction to lousy men sometimes comes from a phenomenon similar or as a part of the "cycle of violence". A girl grows up with a lousy male role model (whether it be a parental unit or the many "uncles" that some women bring around their kids) and all she sees around her are other lousy male role models, so when she decides to date, she will look for the same type of man and will subject herself to his behaviour because that is what she has observed in the past. Once she disassociates herself from one, she is more than likely to look for another of the same ilk to replace him. Unless she is able to see the pattern that she is propagating, she is not going to change.

From:

mollyx.livejournal.com

Stupid, isn't it?

From:

mysticblaze.livejournal.com

Yes, it is. However, most of those women have low self esteem to begin with, and the lousy men feed off of it and remind them of it constantly. The situation becomes a zillion times worse when there is abuse involved.

From:

ceebeegee.livejournal.com

I think it's a false dichotomy that all men are either nice guys or assholes. Sometimes a nice guy is actually a nice guy, and sometimes he's a clingy, desperate loser with no social skills. Sometimes an asshole is actually that, and sometimes he's a guy with a healthy sense of "let's just have fun."

I won't deny that there are unfortunately women who seem to thrive on abuse--I hate that shit, it pisses me off and makes me want to shake them. I'm just saying sometimes the argument about nice guys and assholes gets muddled. From personal experience, I'm always getting waylaid by guys (whom I don't or barely know) who accuse me of "ignoring" them and freely calling me a bitch because I didn't seek them out to be friendly. (Yes, this has happened to me on more occasions than I care to remember and once a guy said this preparatory to asking me out, if you can believe it. Yeah, that's a winning tactic--"You're such a bitch for ignoring me--let's date!") From their perspective, I'm the "asshole."

From:

minstrel70.livejournal.com

What about a nice guy with a healthy sense of "let's just have fun?"

I wonder if the seeming improbability of that combination has something to do with why nice guys finish last.

From:

ceebeegee.livejournal.com

A nice guy with a sense of humor plus a strong sense of who he is--is the ne plus ultra of the hetero female dating world. A guy who can laugh at himself without it being a cover for his own insecurity is just--soooo hot. This is why Harrison Ford is so dreamy.

From:

mollyx.livejournal.com

But I must interject here for just a moment.
I am, by no means, speaking for every woman out there, because let's face it: I don't know every woman.
I can, however, speak on behalf of myself.

This "snobbery" as you put it, (at least for me), is a defense mechanism.

You cannot say yes to every fool that comes along. Because a good amount of the guys you will come across in your dating career are, in fact, fools. Most of the women I know have horror stories of dates that went awry. Relationships that seem to do nothing but suck the energy out of you. All kinds of things guys will do: it's a constant assault of stupidity.

There's the committment-phobics, who either sit on a fence in their relationship trying to stall until something better comes along or just go sneaking around behind their girl's back, just to see if they can get away with it. There's the guys who can't make up their mind what they want and play games with their girls. Guys who will treat their girls any damn way they please because "hey, I'm the best thing in her life."
And those are the ones without "issues."

During my singlehood, I was not being a snob, I was being selective. For many years, a woman has to endure lurid remarks, lascivious looks and even the occasional inappropriate touch. Then there are the men you actually know. From the time you are about 15 years of age on up, you recieve ridiculously polar opinions about how one should behave accepting a "compliment." Some of the things that pass for a compliment are absurd.
A guy I knew in college told his friend that I was "pretty for a Black girl." So help me God, he had no idea why I was upset when I heard.

This article seems to have a certain slant to it, focusing mainly on the economic situation involved. The girls they interviewed are young and very unaware of how very bad it can and will get. Assuming that the guy must pay for every damn thing at this stage in their lives is naive. Believing that your mere presence requires gift-giving of Tiffany proportions is, well, stupid. For every gold-digging, self-absorbed Paris Hilton wanna-be in the league of women there are about a thousand other, everyday women wanting to slap her clean out of her Manolo Blahniks for her line of thinking.

When Jason and I first started dating, I could not get used to the idea that he insisted on paying for everything. This was rare behavior in my experience and at first I wanted to know what he was expecting. I told him on more than one occasion that spending a lot of money on me was unnecessary and not the way to impress me. He didn't have to do that. I already liked him.

In my short dating career, I've had a guy attempt to cheat on me with my friends. One guy who couldn't commit to one actual date, but making out with me whenever he saw me was completely within the realm of possibility. One guy who wanted to spend forever with me, as long as our life decisions had his say so. After a while, you start to see guys like that coming a mile away. If you don't think I'm worth the work, then cut me loose and move on. If you can get past all of the other stuff, congratulations.

No one starts a new date or relationship clean. No one.

From:

ceebeegee.livejournal.com

The girls they interviewed are young and very unaware of how very bad it can and will get. Assuming that the guy must pay for every damn thing at this stage in their lives is naive.

This is an excellent point--I think the girls/women who have that sense of entitlement are naive about relationships. They don't realize how hard it is to find someone you really like--at least, it's hard for me. You can't get hung up on "he MUST pay for everything" because things like "can he carry on an intelligent conversation?" and "does he respect my values?" are much more important. And like you, I'm always surprised at how many guys insist on paying. Most guys I've dated insisted on paying for everything, they would not let me contribute except on very rare occasions like their birthdays. That is really nice but believe me, I don't expect it, and they'd better not expect sex in return. That's the practical side of my feminist ideology here--I dread someday hearing "Hey, I put out a lot of money for you. I expect something in return."

From:

mollyx.livejournal.com

The by all means, he deserves something in return.
You've still got that stick from when you used to play field hockey, right?
Give him what he deserves.
If a guy ever said that to me and got away with nothing more than a glare and notice never to speak to me again, he'd have gotten away extremely easy.

From:

ceebeegee.livejournal.com

I've already imagined it: I give him a sweet smile and say "and you're getting something--the pleasure of my company."

I should stress I'm worrying about the rare asshole; I've never dated a man like that.

From:

mysticblaze.livejournal.com

Why say anything? It is better to illustrate the point... show him what he really deserves so that he doesn't make the same mistake again.

From:

foulpost.livejournal.com

paying for everything is really about an establishment of power. It says "I can take care of you, let me prove it". There resides in the display of financial confidence a surrogate for a more primal directive. Slap down that credit card and beat your chest. It's part of the mating show.

From:

mollyx.livejournal.com

I KNEW IT!!
I knew it, I knew it, I knew it!

From:

ceebeegee.livejournal.com

Ooga ooga! Me manly man. Me whip out ~~huge penis~~ plat-i-num card and pay bill. You get engorged and tingly at my primitive display of financial security and give it up.

From:

foulpost.livejournal.com

Glad you got the joke.

From:

mysticblaze.livejournal.com

In retrospect, I think that is what my ex was doing. The worst part is that I got used to it, and now I am paying the price.

From:

foulpost.livejournal.com

-This article seems to have a certain slant to it, focusing mainly on the economic situation involved. The girls they interviewed are young and very unaware of how very bad it can and will get. Assuming that the guy must pay for every damn thing at this stage in their lives is naive. Believing that your mere presence requires gift-giving of Tiffany proportions is, well, stupid. For every gold-digging, self-absorbed Paris Hilton wanna-be in the league of women there are about a thousand other, everyday women wanting to slap her clean out of her Manolo Blahniks for her line of thinking.-

Thats pretty much what I was referring to when I made that remark about why women think they are the prize. I did not mean to suggest EVERY woman behaves that way at all. But your above comment references too many similar experiences from my own life. I ofetn felt liek she couldn't give a damn about me but I would could do for her simply because she was so beautiful and desireable. Hey, I'm a man, I have the same impulses to indulge her. But then there a comes a moment when you really have to ask if she's really worth it. If a woamn values pricey ambiance and bling-bling more than she would my mind or , dare I say, my body, then why the hell would I even bother? Chances are she's the type of chick I know is scoping out all the men in the place as soon as I get up to use the restroom.

From:

mollyx.livejournal.com

You can spot her coming a mile away, right?
But you go for her anyway. Why?

And be honest: if a new girl came into your girl and said or did something that triggered a memory from past experiences, the defense shield would be up, full blast, ready and loaded.

So yeah. You'll get that girl who looks at you and sees her lousy ex and she'll try her damnest to get rid of you. If you were her, wouldn't you?

From:

mysticblaze.livejournal.com

I would think that the defense shield would already be up as soon as you spot her coming a mile away. You don't want to repeat the same mistake over and over. I know I wouldn't.

By the same token, you cannot blame someone for the memories that they inadvertently trigger. My ex blamed me for whatever memories I triggered about his insecurities while growing up and the treatment he received from his prior girlfriends even though I had no control over either (i wasn't even around).

From:

wonderpanther.livejournal.com

Dude. If you offer to pay, you should pay. A guy once asked me out, named the restaurant (and it wasn't cheap) and then asked for a contribution at the end--and I was pretty poor at the time. He did pay most of it but I thought that was very poor form. If I'd known he wanted a contribution, I would've suggested a less expensive restaurant.

I could not agree more. I have gone dutch and treated the guy many times. However, one V-Day, my bf at the time told me that he wanted to take me out to a really nice place, that I should pick the restaurant and "Money was no object." I offered up a few mid-priced places but he said that he wanted it to be really posh and special so I we finally agreed on a really nice place. At dinner, when the wine list came, he urged me to pick something expensive to make the night really special, so I did. At the time, I was a poor grad student and he had a decent job. I went on the date and did not bring my wallet, only my license, which was stupid but anyway, the check came and he looked at me. I said, "I didn't bring any money." He said, "You can pay me back for your half later."

From:

mysticblaze.livejournal.com

I would have said, "Loser, you are not getting any money from me. YOU wanted to take me out to an expensive place, YOU urged me to pick an expensive wine. It was all YOUR idea. Now suffer the consequences of your decision. And by the way, I never want to see you again. Stop wasting my time."

Then again, in the second year of the relationship with my ex, ie when he had more money, he wanted to go to an expensive restaurant, I would make sure to tell him that if he wanted to go we could BUT that I would not be able to afford it or to contribute unless we went to a less expensive place.

The problem here was even though he understood my financial situation, he would go ahead and take me to the expensive restaurant and pay, and then years later I came to find out that he resented me for having to pay. My ex clearly had prior notice that we should have gone to a cheaper place if he wanted me to contribute.

From:

minstrel70.livejournal.com

Then there's the case of a woman insisting on an expensive place, knowing that the man can't afford it, and not even offering to contribute. Happened to me on Valentine's Day 1993. Top of the Sixes, a $300 dinner. I was a starving college student at the time, and she knew this. That we stayed together for three months after that still amazes me.

From:

mysticblaze.livejournal.com

If a woman insists on an expensive place and knows that the man can't afford it, she better be prepared to contribute her share. If she doesn't want to contribute, then there is no point in going anywhere. Why should you have to bear the brunt of her capriciousness?

From:

minstrel70.livejournal.com

Frankly, I was 22, stupid, and enjoying the best sex I'd had at that point in my life, so I didn't really fight it.

The thing that I was most upset about was that I had asked her to pick the restaurant because I was new to the area and didn't know where to go, but I specifically said it should be nice, but not too expensive. I guess I should feel lucky she didn't choose the Russian Tea Room or Tavern on the Green.

From:

mysticblaze.livejournal.com

I think that explains why you stayed together with her 3 months afterwards...

Contrary to popular belief, it is (was possible in the case of the Russian Tea Room) to have a not too expensive dinner at Tavern on the Green. You might actually have been better off.

As for a pick of restaurants, one word: Zagat's. Come to think of it, if you didn't know that she had chosen an expensive restaurant, you could have called them and asked what their price range was before that night, cancelled and chosen a different place.

From:

minstrel70.livejournal.com

I was a New York newbie at the time. I'd been in the area less than six months, and was quite thoroughly clueless. Of course I know about Zagat's now...