Really geeky Tudor England discussion
May. 30th, 2006 05:32 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ceebeegeeSo I read The Other Boleyn Girl this weekend. It's about Mary Boleyn, sister to Anne (most sources I've checked seem to indicate she was older than Anne, but the book makes her a few years younger)--she was also Henry VIII's mistress after Bessie Blount and before he was involved with Anne. Mary was also rumored to be Francois I's mistress (both Anne and Mary served in the French court--Anne was noted for her love of French fashion, and in her portraits she is usually wearing the French (curved) hood, whereas Catherine of Aragon (Anne's queenly predecessor) and Jane Seymour (Anne's replacement) both wore a gabled hood. The book doesn't mention Mary's reputation for promiscuity--in fact she is extremely sympathetically portrayed, and Anne is much less so. The book shows Mary as respecting and caring for Catherine (whom she served as lady-in-waiting) and torn between her desire to do the decent thing, her loyalty toward her family, and her love for Henry. It's all well-written and interesting, although parts of it do not quite ring true--the book assumes that Henry Carey was Henry Tudor's bastard, but then the King takes no interest in his upbringing which we know was not the case with Henry Fitzroy (his acknowledged bastard by Bessie Blount). The King is shown as being thrilled when Mary is pregnant both times, and then forgets about the kids--inconsistent characterization. The book also says that Anne assumed the role of Henry Carey's guardian--first off, I'd *never* heard this before (but it seems this really did happen?--I think I found confirmation online), but how could one woman take away parental rights from another? Mary Boleyn was still alive, still there and I believe William Carey had other family. I realize family law was different back then but it still doesn't make sense, or at any rate, Gregory (the author) doesn't make it plausible--she says Anne's motive was to have a trump spare heir in the wings (because the King's Great Matter was all about Finding That Heir). Why would Anne do this when it's Henry's bastard? How would that be her trump? It just didn't make sense.
Mary and Anne had another noted sibling, their brother George, who was executed along with Anne when his wife, Lady Rochford, testified to their incestuous affair. Gregory's theories are more plausible here, because she paints a decent characterization of George and Anne as the only two who really understand each other (George is homosexual in this portrayal and Anne is the prototypical fruit fly--historians are divided on George's proclivities but Lady Rochford certainly did have it in for her husband. And the rest of the Howards--she also turned in Catherine Howard (George, Mary and Anne's first cousin) a few years later for adultery. She was directly responsible for the deaths of three Howards!). Anyway, Anne is desperate to conceive a child and apparently Henry is impotent (okay, Gregory, we KNOW he fathered Edward VI--that child was a classic Tudor male, dying at 15), so driven nearly insane by her ambition and that of her family, she hooks up with her brother, and the result is a monster baby that miscarries. Anne's mounting instability and its effect on the rest of the family is nicely portrayed, as is her relationship with her two siblings. There's a lovely, weirdly evocative scene just before everything comes crashing down, the night before the day everyone is arrested, and Anne and George sense something is about to happen, and they cuddle in front of the fire all night, whistling past the graveyard. I also like the portrayal of Mary's relationship with William Stafford (her married-for-love second husband who was much lower socially than she). Stafford seemed like a straight up guy!
I would love to read a novel about Catherine Howard. She fascinates me, for some reason.
Mary and Anne had another noted sibling, their brother George, who was executed along with Anne when his wife, Lady Rochford, testified to their incestuous affair. Gregory's theories are more plausible here, because she paints a decent characterization of George and Anne as the only two who really understand each other (George is homosexual in this portrayal and Anne is the prototypical fruit fly--historians are divided on George's proclivities but Lady Rochford certainly did have it in for her husband. And the rest of the Howards--she also turned in Catherine Howard (George, Mary and Anne's first cousin) a few years later for adultery. She was directly responsible for the deaths of three Howards!). Anyway, Anne is desperate to conceive a child and apparently Henry is impotent (okay, Gregory, we KNOW he fathered Edward VI--that child was a classic Tudor male, dying at 15), so driven nearly insane by her ambition and that of her family, she hooks up with her brother, and the result is a monster baby that miscarries. Anne's mounting instability and its effect on the rest of the family is nicely portrayed, as is her relationship with her two siblings. There's a lovely, weirdly evocative scene just before everything comes crashing down, the night before the day everyone is arrested, and Anne and George sense something is about to happen, and they cuddle in front of the fire all night, whistling past the graveyard. I also like the portrayal of Mary's relationship with William Stafford (her married-for-love second husband who was much lower socially than she). Stafford seemed like a straight up guy!
I would love to read a novel about Catherine Howard. She fascinates me, for some reason.
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Date: 2006-05-31 02:29 am (UTC)as for the family thing-ihstory supports that anne did formally adopt henry carey; however, his true parentage is in question-carey acknowledged him, but some historians describe him as being a classic tudor in looks. back then, when someone adopted a child, that child became the true blood of the adoptive parents, regardless of the life status of the birth parents. however, as long as henry had a real blood heir he could not have been in the succession unless henry had acknowledged him as his.
in addition, one of the reasons henry was able to divorce katherine of aragon was his inability to father a son on her...it was the divine will of god that she wasn't his true wife because of that lack...henry was very devout that way (well, mostly when it suited him; however, he thought he was very devout)
as for the losing interest when his wives were pregnant, historians seem to agree that this was the case-henry was very selfish and while he was proud of his ability to get his wives pregnant, he was a very selfish man and needed his "ego" stroked. he had no interest in his children when they were born female-and lost interest in his wives when the children were female or when they were miscarried. the only children he ever seemed to express interest in were his son by blount and his son by jane seymour. a large part of the succession issues had to do with the fact that by having his marriage to katherine of aragon annulled, mary was technically made a bastard and he denounced elizabeth as being the daughter of a minstrel-even though before anne was beheaded, mary was "given" to elizabeth as a maid...
i am rather a henry viii buff...read anything i can get my hands on...the jean plaidy books are all wonderful...a nice balance to the philippa gregory books-another really good one is by margaret george, "an autobiography of henry the viii with notes by his fool will sommers, " which is not easy read, but is excellent-and very well grounded in fact-it's a really good overview of henry as a whole and good for grounding the sequence of events and how henry changed over the years.
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Date: 2006-05-31 04:16 am (UTC)I knew there was speculation about Henry Carey but not the specifics (I didn't know what he looked like or anything). Henry Fitzroy and Henry Carey (if necessary) would've always been heirs-in-waiting after Edward VI, since he was legitimate....Also I've heard that Henry was pretty decent about the Princesses Mary and Elizabeth being born girls--that is he sucked up his disappointment and put a good face on it. It is a fact that he needed a boy to secure the weird and weak claim to the throne that he had (it's fascinating that as weak as the Tudor claim was, he solidified the power unto the throne in a way that hadn't been seen since his great-uncle Richard III!).
What did you think about Henry's promiscuity in the book? I've always thought of Henry as fairly conventional--more wives than mistresses, thought of himself as a Catholic even though he broke the power of the Church--but TOBG seemed to think of Henry as pretty horny.
It's fascinating to think that with all those wives, he got ONE legal son, ONE perfect legal heir. No wonder he was going nuts.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-31 04:46 am (UTC)and he never acknowledged henry carey as his (hence he had the surname carey and not fitzroy-and he was adopted by anne, not anne and henry)-not sure what happened to him...should look into that...although he COULD have inherited post adoption as a full heir (even before anne). i am not sure why he didn't after edward, except for possibly for mary's preventing it, or the howard taint...or henry's obsession with having a "true heir" follow him...
the margaret george book and the jean plaidy books deal with henry's promiscuity VERY well...they portray henry as history tends to-as supremely selfish and many devoutly religious with crises of conscious-changing and interpreting rules to suit himself...and certain lapses where women are involved-and the resulting "guilt" after...
i think henry was mad, personally-almost a fractured personality, which would actually be in keeping with british royalty...devoutly religious, but selfish; hence, always at war with himself...ultimately, he did what made him feel best and found ways to justify it after. that being said, he WAS more faithful to his wives than many men of his day.
he was a child-always playing games and then having tantrums when things didn't go his way. in many ways, the phrase "absolute power corrupts absolutely" applies to him in many ways...
edward was sick from day one...born premature with all the common lung issues common to preemies. the fact he lived as long as he did was rather a miracle...his only acknowledged healthy son was bessie blount's...
as a note the weeping sore on his thigh that is thought to have killed him is consistent with syphillis...and many historians believe that he did indeed have "the french disease"...
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Date: 2006-05-31 03:41 pm (UTC)I think you're right about Henry's insanity--when you consider what happened to Margaret Pole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Pole%2C_Countess_of_Salisbury)--I mean, that's just butchery. I think that constant worrying about the King's Great Matter must've taken quite a toll. I actually do sympathize with him about that but after awhile he went around the bend. I thought TOBG made a fascinating point about the degradation of the law and the treatment of women, how Anne had set a bad precedent.